Wednesday, December 10, 2008

Sheila Dixit ki jai ho!!!

I met a popular and powerful cabinet minister last night, who expressed his astonishment at the recent election results, especially the Dilli ones. According to him, it had nothing to do with Dixit's magic wand, and everything with Modi's faux pas ( coming to Mumbai after the attacks - not with a heart filled with solace but a bagful of money!! ).People were disgusted.... revolted by such naked opportunism and Modi's ill -conceived strategy completely back fired on him personally and the party. If Advani and gang are licking their wounds, it may be a bit too late to recover lost ground. I am no Congress fan - but as the old saying goes, " What is the alternative??" Indian voters are caught between the devil and the blue sea. Which means the same old rascals will be voted back into power, give or take a couple of new faces. The appetisers may vary but the main course remains the same!
Meanwhile the terrorist hunt continues with most Mumbaikars refusing to believe there were just 8 or 10 0f them in that dinghy. Kasab the Butcher is singing like a canary, missing mummy and asking for biryani!! He is such a small fry, we need not bother with him.... he probably knows one millioneth of the full plot. The leads he is providing are useful only upto a point. I'd say give him biryani, kebabs and murg massalam. Feed him well..... his stomach will talk!!

61 comments:

Arjun said...

First we must feed him.... and then we should FEED him.. let him walk free on the streets of Mumbai...
I think it's time for CITIZEN JUSTICE!!

Twisted Elegance.... said...

I think this Modi bashing has become a sort of fashion in this country. Assembly elections are fought mainly based on local issues. To say that the BJP lost because of Modi in Delhi is really stupid. If what that minister says is true then what about MP where the BJP won with a clear majority?
The MP people din't know about what modi did?


Arjun is right. Give the guy to the people of Mumbai

Operative Knick-Knacks said...

BJP lost not cos Modi was in Mumbai. I think that is a pretty stupid comment. They lost because terrorism is a not an issue when it comes to masses.

Menses said...

whatever be the story...Modi toh kutta hai...

post 26/11, it was amazing to see how bloody out of touch with public sentiment these dumbass politicians are...

one after another, like dominoes, they all fell down

one gaffe after another

phunnnyyyy

sanjuayyar said...

i agree with 'Twisted Elegance' that during Assembly elections, the masses vote for local issues primarily. In fact, that is how it has to be. If Congress in Delhi has done well according to delhites, they get another term...whats wrong there? Congress has goofed up in Maharashtra, so lets see how you and me react when we go voting. Kasab is a terrorist, and even if he's a small fry, we cannot yield to his demands. I mean, asking for non-veg food after having butchered and murdered hundreds of innocents, the least we can do is feed him parts of his dead terrorist colleagues. Maybe, the son of a bitch will like it. And then as someone else pointed out, hand him over to the junta. Let's show Pakistan what the common man in India is capable of. They think we can't handle or create terror, and if they think so, its their error.

Anonymous said...

Really, I admire Sheila Dixit too. She appears on TV so confident and poised. Unlike the other politicians, she knows how to be funny on TV! May her kind rise and I really hope the Manmohan singh government is here too stay. For some reason they seem well grounded.

HOBO said...

:)

kalyan said...

i don't think we should be giving any importance to kasab..just leave such nugatory things alone...instead we should concentrate on getting some answers from the government and the so called intelligence and on how they are gonna act on the issue.

We should'nt let the gravity boil down this time around or mumbai may join ahmedabad, hyderabad and delhi only for the sake rememberance and the future generation would end up playing "Pick the odd one out"...

The issue should always appear on the first page of all major news papers until they take a hard step against terrorism...

Vinay. said...

it is foolish to attribute the electoral failure to Mody.it has more to do with Advani and his blame game in shrill voice.people have seen throughthe BJP's game of making a feast out of funeral.Their sanctimonious attitude and negative propganda backfired.I am no fan of Congress,but ultimately it boils down to voting for the lesser evil and on this cong seems to have edge.people are also wary of the backseat driving of communists.Surprisingly congress is looking cleaner.
vinay

Ketan Joshi said...

Yeah true. I do not think BJP lost because of Modi. He was just one of the million reasons why they lost. We Indian citizens are no fools. When BJP blames the ruling party for terror, we would like to ask them what have they done? Why were they not letting Mr. Karkare do his job as ATS chief? When they were in power, what did they do? They may have forgotten the Parliament Attack or Kandahar. We have not and we will not. When they were in power, they shrugged their shoulders and blamed their allies for not doing anything. When they are in opposition they oppose the government for everything; most of the time at the cost of national interest. I salute Mrs. Karkare for standing up against these shameless thugs. I know that very soon BJP will start a campain against her that she is anti Hindu , anti national blah blah....My message to Advani and co : Grow up or get lost......

Another Kiran In NYC said...

My very smart Goan Catholic friend in Delhi, said this to me on the phone, after looking at the ballot paper with the parties listed...... Kiran what to do, should I vote for "corrupt and communal" or "corrupt and communal" or "corrupt and communal" or"corrupt and communal"?
Bechara, no choice!

I think he voted for one of the "corrupt and communal" choices.

We are like that wonly!

But it is true, local issues matter more during assembly elections.

People who would not have voted for the BJP had made up thier mind already, much before Narendra Modi ki dramebaazi. I dont think the Modi business in Mumbai changed thier mind or reinforced anything. Perhaps it affected the people who were undecided until the polls.

Janata knows anyway that EVERYONE of the parties still have to grow a pair of gonads to really tackle any issues of importance. Grandstanding is easy, the hard work is not. Goes for all sides.

And yes Shiela Dixit is charismatic. It also helps that she has a close relationship with Hamari Italian Bahu (HIB for short... sounds like a nasty vaccine tho). Proximity and rubbed off lustre and all that. Shiela Behna has learnt her lessons well. Full marks to her for that.

Anonymous said...

I'm no fan of BJP or congress, and it was an over-confident, rude part on Modi to go and do what he hastily did in Mumbai without realizing how vulnerable the situation was. but if Modi's behaviour could effect BJP, why didn't Vilas Rao and Ramu's terror tourism reflect badly on Congress?

In past 2-3 years Modi government has made a lot of positive things in Gujarat, though it hasn't been free of terrorism either. He is no saint but he is much more capable than a lot of so called politicans elsewhere in the country. However, currently, there is practically no one worth voting for. I just wish we as a country could be stronger after a shock as this and wish some better young leaders would come forward...

Rahul Viswanath said...

Very True !!!

Feed him as he comes from a family where chicken gravy is considered a beverage ...........

eye-in-sty-in said...

Well, its easy to say what Modi did was not good, but since when do we expect politicians to show solace? Ha!

What Modi did was opportunistic. But then, was it not the same thing that got Gujarat the Nano plant? Atleast he is using his opportunistic skills for the betterment of his state. And in the terror attack scenario, he used the bags of money to give to those who had lost their loved ones! True, he also did it to rub it in the Maharashtra Govt's faces because they had the gall to go to Gujarat had asked to see his performance card before the polls - Which btw, Modi won inspite of a huge anti-modi campaign by the likes of Sonia - a leader at the national level! And mind you, Modi won because the people of Gujarat have seen what he has done for the state in his tenure, not by Booth capturinf (a La Laloo in Bihar). Have you seen the changes made by Modi's Govt. in Gujarat in the past few years? You should pay a visit!

Imagine what Modi can do for the country if he was elected PM! We need more like him! They are much better than the likes of Deshmu(r)kh's who used the terrorist attack as an opportunity for his son's next movie!

BJP lost in Delhi because of Modi? Ha ha ha ha ha! Thats all I'll say to that statement!

sat said...

Hi all Indians,
My film Rab ne bana de.. (80% financed by me) is releasing tomorrow. Please book the tickets ASAP. Around 1200 prints of the film will be released across the world.. The total run time is 3:46 hrs. I am estimating that with 1200 prints, the business would be around 60 crores in the first week, 30 crores in 2nd week, 15 crores in 3rd and 5 crores in 4th week which makes a gross total of around 110 crores. I pledge to all muslims in India and in Pakistan that 50 crores will be earmarked for the immediate training of another 20 jihadists.. The next 50 crores will be utilized for the next 5-year plan (2010-2015) for cross-country violence (CCV) and to soothe pseudo-secularists (Arundhati roy, Javed Aktar etc.). I am sure that all the muslims will be excited with these new ventures.. I have to remember my well wishers that this is just a beginning. A new galaxy of adventurous projects for jihadists will be created in the years ahead…
Enjoy the movie with family now… Please do not think about the money… Life is so unpredictable.. Who knows when our jihadists strike next…
Your humble Jihadi recruiter,
Dawood (SRK’s best friend)

Anonymous said...

Hey Sat,

Please do not use this forum for this type of messages..

sat said...

Ok Anonymous,
I'm sorry...

Joy said...

Sat
Please refrain from fiction when you can use facts.

Joy said...

Kiran - HIB ? Good one.

Anyways, people - remind me again - Why are you voting for a party which has a foreign woman with no experience or education to speak of as its head ? The party which has, in the history of its existence, cause irreperable harm to the country ?
The HIB(couldn't resist that one - sorry) of the man who, upon his death left the country "not better fed, clothed or housed, ...more corruptly governed...with higher taxes, ever-rising prices, ever-acute foreign exchange difficulties, and more unemployment than when he took charge" (quote - Walter Crocker - Australian High Commissioner to India in 60s) ?
The party who, without Sardar Patel to direct affairs during the initial days, would have not been able to hold India together for 50 days, let alone 50 years ?
The party which did not have the basic decency of giving Sardar Patel the Bharat Ratna till the 90s ?
Or acknowledge contributions of Netaji in the struggle for independance ?
Or reinforced its power only through divisive politics ?
Options -
(a) They are the party of Gandhi and Nehru.
(b) The alternatives are Communists or Modi.
(c) You don't vote.

The only acceptable choice, at this point, of all responsible citizens, is if they honestly choose (b).

If every one of you votes 49-O (where you exercise your right to not vote due to the fact that you think the candidates are unsuitable), maybe that's when this country might get a strong leader, ala Sardar Patel or Tilak.
Oh - how I wish we had a Netaji now.
Or a Swami Vivekananda.

*Aham* said...

Neela, Peela or Sheela, how does it matter? What matters now, is that citizens get alert and start finding their own solutions. Thre is this mail about the provision called "49-0" that we can excercise when we vote. You could reach the polling booth and if you are not satisfied enough to vote for any candidate, then you could just say...I VOTE NOBODY. and dont press on any button, but get the imprint on your nails.

and if more than 50% of them in a particular booth vote for nobody. There will be reelections, and reelctiopns, until you get some candidate that we are convinced about. Mast hai na...

Just that these politicos have kept mum about this.

If congress it is inaction, if BJP or some other party it wouldve probably been Hindutva. Id prefer no action to spreading wrath.


i find it cruel to keep kasab alive. Cruel to us and Cruel to him. We cant be kasab, we shouldnt be as bad as he (even with him).

Anyways, what he has told is not what we dont know. But yes it helps when we have kasab admit that. Now that it is done, whats the point in keeping him alive.

Joy said...

See - Aham - this is exactly why I am so frustrated with our media and our history books.
To you, and to the average Hindu, Hindutva is nothing but one of the two options -

a) Ahimsa, as laid down by Gandhi, wherein you remain a subservient and obedient doormat, sacrificing all, even your self respect, to maintain peace.
OR
b) Carry tridents around the city and poke people around, without objective dissemination of facts.

My friend - it is unfortunate that a Hindu does not have a sense of history (quoting Al-Beruni).

Otherwise he or she could not have ignored the science and philosophy in the Vedas and Upanishads, the political and economic genius of Chanakya and Chandragupta Maurya, and the proud empires of Magadha, Mauryas and the Cholas.
And the colossus that was Ashoka.
Or Krishnadeva Raya, of the great Vijayanagara Empire of the South.
Or the Cholas and Pandyas.
Or Shivaji Maharaj.
If you want to know the rich tapestry that is Hinduism ,read Swami Vivekananda or Sri Aurobindo's works - simple, to the point, and extremely goal-oriented.
If you do not like to read Hindu scholars - try Romain Rolland, Al-Beruni, Al-Badauni, Levi, Thorass, Domingo Paez, Fernando Nunis et al.
If you wish to go a little back, read Claudius Ptolemy (it'll give you an idea of how vast the Indian empire actually was).


Read R.C. Majumdar's books - they'll give you a better picture of India as it was through the ages. (It actually critiques the Muslim and British eras extremely impartially - no hyperbole - mentions the contributions and the drawbacks of both eras).

Now, you ask me - how will this help you ?
This will help you find your self-respect back from the pseudo-secular clutches of Gandhi-Nehruvian history.
It will help you realize that Bharat was always a nation of welcoming people, who embraces all and sundry, irrespective of caste or creed or religion.

And once you gain that, you'll learn to give respect to others.
Half of the problem gets resolved right there.

The rest lies in one problem - restoring law and order in the land. That is around the corner.

Was that a bit much ?

mahgan said...

Well, actually they say that Digvijay Singh got booted out a second time in MP because he tried to cash in on "Hindu Terror", going big on Malegaon, and the voters didn't like it one bit. It seems that invoking Malegaon he tried to blame even 9/11 on RSS and other ogres, and it backfired on the Congress badly.

Joy said...

mahgan

Is that true ? How strange that our "secular" media has not picked THAT one up.

Yet they did pick Modi offering cash to Mrs Karkare.

And the fact that BJP took out front-page ads on newspapers promoting the Bombay issue.

Yet they ignored the fact that HIB (simply too good) and our esteemed YesMa..oops.. Prime Minister did exactly the same thing. In which they cried - look - BJP is selling terror.

Can you spell bias ?

Anonymous said...

Where is Malegaon investigation heading, does anybody have any idea? What happened of those laptops that was suppose to contain lots of secrets about Dayanand and his counterparts. Oh I think that has gone with Late Shri Hemant Karkareji.

Joy said...

Anonymous
If you wish to speak ill of the martyr, have the guts to publish your name.
Oh - the Malegaon investigation is going fine, thank you.

6 people killed in front a SIMI office and we've got the entire police force on it.
And 800 people die in 2008 alone, yet we refuse to call it Islamic terrorism.
Funny !!!

Oh - by the way - how is Mehbooba Mufti - do you know ? Or Asiyah Andrabi and her DeM ? Still opposing people on their lands and throwing acid at women for not wearing burqas ?

Oh - you didn't know about these people ?
Gee - wonder why ...

Anita said...

Sat,

Why are you sorry ? I loved your film piece on Dawood. It opened my eyes.

Joy,

Your posts are making me more educated and increasing my perspectives. Thank you and keep doing the good work. You seem very knowledgable.

Anonymous said...

But on second thought, I despise the rumour mongering of you (joy) and your new friend maghan.

Whoever said congress is defeating the hindhu tradition of secularism? It is only a concoction of the BJP which spreads intolerance and communalism. Another misleading concoction of the BJP is PSEUDO SECALRISM! Now that is becoming their mantra and mantras of all their supporters. Its sickening for them to utter that word!

Anonymous said...

Correction "PSEUDO SECULARISM"

tee hee

Anitha said...

Narendra Modi offering to Karkare is like slapping a person and then offering him some balm!

On the other hand HIB and honorable PM offered money as consolation

There is no comparison !!!

Joy said...

Dear Anonymous
Rumor mongering, you say ? How quaint.
What rumor have I been mongering, if I may ask ?
Every single piece of data was backed up evidence. Absolute solid proof.
If you would be so patient as to read my posts, but I suppose that's too much to as yeah ?

Another Kiran In NYC said...

Aiyoooo idherich Jihad ho rella hai!

Joy said...

Anitha
Again - I urge you - read my post. The comparison was not of money being offered.
I was comparing the fact that ads were taken out by BOTH the set of imbeciles we call our leaders using terror for vote bank politics, yet somehow BJP comes into the picture and INC does not.
The criticism is being directed at the media, and not INC or BJP.

Joy said...

Kiran .. NYC
"idherich" ... didn't get that.
But was that for me ? The Jihad part ?

Joy said...

Anonymous
I believe you have assumed me to be a BJP supporter. Allow me to correct you - ex-BJP supporter.

Another Kiran In NYC said...

Joy Jaani,

You can take me out of Mumbai but you cant take the Mumbaiiya out of me. Idherich is Mumbaispeak for ... right here.

Jihad is directed at everyone dahlink!

I really need a drink or something now. Im feeling a little giddy today. Thankgod its friday... TGIF and all that!

So who here has weekend plans of the good and pious or the wicked sort?

I vote for wicked all the way!

Joy said...

Kiran..NYC
Aah ...
Wicked for you, Good and Pious for someone, Work for poor ol' me ...
Gah !!!

Joy said...

Anonymous
I see you have not responded to my refutation of your allegations against me.
Anyways - let me go ahead and answer your second question.

I agree with a major school of thought that INC has been instrumental in perversing the Hindu idea of secularism.
INC was responsible (it still is) for the Hindu-Muslim divide with its policy of appeasement starting with the support of the Khilafat movement in 1921, right down to implementing different sets of different sets of laws for different religious group, whereas the concept of secularism is based on "SEPERATION OF RELIGION AND STATE".
I can discuss my point in detail, would you be willing to listen.
Since I have my doubts about your capacity to discuss sensitive matters with an open mind (and please prove me wrong - I'll be the first one to hang my head in shame), let me conclude by quoting a few people who are definitely more famous and eloquent than I can ever aspire to be -
1. "Under the socialist regime of Jawaharlal Nehru and his family successors the state was intolerant, restrictive and grotesquely bureaucratic. That has largely changed (though much bureaucracy remains), and the natural tolerance of the Hindu mind-set has replaced quasi-Marxist rigidity.'"
- Paul Johnson (Historian) Want to Prosper? Then be Tolerant,' Forbes, June 21, 2004

2. The forgotten fact that the Morarji Desai government had moved the 45th Constitutional Amendment Bill in 1978 which, among other issues, defined secularism as equal respect to all religions; that bill was passed in the Lok Sabha, but turned down by the Congress majority in the Rajya Sabha. - Arvind Lavakare, rediff.com, referencing actual data
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/jun/09arvind.htm

3. The so-called 'secularism' rampant in India is a perversion of that reasonable idea: in India it is contrived to mean the active involvement of the State in supporting certain religions (Islam, Christianity and Marxism) and oppressing others (Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism). Religion has become the primary consideration in all sorts of civil affairs: in anything from the reporting of news to running educational institutions.
- Rajeev Srinivasan
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/05rajeev.htm

4. "[India] isn't secular. As a political framework, secularism requires that all citizens are equal before the law, regardless of their religious affiliation. That is a definitional minimum. An Indian secularist would therefore first of all be found on the barricades in the struggle for a common civil code, against the existing legal apartheid between Hindus, Muslims, Christians and Parsis. But the only major party to demand the enactment of a common civil code, as mandated by the Constitution, happens to be the BJP. On election eve, the others run to the Shahi Imam to pledge their firm commitment to the preservation of the Shari'a for Muslims. In the West and in the Muslim world, the upholding of religion-based communal legislation is rightly called anti-secularist."
- Dr. Elst Keonard, noted Indologist

I suppose if these people are not knowledgeable enough for you, I'll take your time (if you're still wih me) for a bit more.

5. 'It is impossible to believe that Gandhi and his adherents are not aware that this claim of the Mahomedans to be judged only by the Law of the Koran, is a claim which is the fons et origo of all Khilafat claims of whatever kind. It is well to be clear about this, for not only does the acceptance of the claim mean the death knell of the British Empire or Indo-British Commonwealth, WHATEVER NAME WE MAY CARE TO GIVE TO THE GREAT FRATERNITY OF NATIONS TO WHICH WE BELONG, BUT SPECIFICALLY AS REGARDS INDIA IT MEANS A REAL DENIAL OF SWARAJ. FOR IT INVOLVES MAHOMEDAN RULE AND HINDU SUBJECTION.'
- Sir C. Sankaran Nair (a Member of the Viceroy's Executive Council ) - book name 'Gandhi and Anarchy' - 1922.

You might say these people were haters, so let me leave you with a quote from Gandhiji himself -

6. "But, just as I respect the cow, so do I respect my fellowmen. A man is just as useful as a cow
no matter whether he be a Mahomedan or a Hindu. Am I, then, to fight with or kill a Mahomedan
in order to save a cow? In doing so, I would become an enemy of the Mahomedan as well as of
the cow. Therefore, the only method I know of protecting the cow is that I should approach my
Mahomedan brother and urge him for the sake of the country to join me in protecting her. If he
would not listen to me I should let the cow go for the simple reason that the matter is beyond my
ability. If I were overfull of pity for the cow, I should sacrifice my life to save her but not take
my brother’s. This, I hold, is the law of our religion."
- M.K.Gandhi (Hind Swaraj, 1909 - English translation 1938)
(Cow is to be read metaphorically here)

And, finally, from quotes to actions, I'll leave you with one -

1. Gandhiji's hunger strike in Calcutta during the Great Calcutta Killings(1946)to stop the Hindus retaliating against the Muslims (ably assisted by Hussein Suhrawardy), yet he refused to do anything remotely close during the '46 Noakhali riots, which was more butchery than rioting.
- source - R.C.Majumdar (Indian Freedom Movement)
2. His initial refusal, then downgrading the effects of 1921 Moplah rebellion in Malabar, which left thousands homeless, with the Moplahs establishing the Caliphate there. (albeit for a short while, with Lord Reading suppressing them with great brutality.
- source - Sir C.Sankaran Nair
3. His support of the Ali brothers in the Khilafat movement in which they wanted to restore the Caliphate in Turkey, and also his support of the same Ali brothers in inviting the Amir of Afghanistan to attack India and establish Islamic rule.
And his steadfast refusal to even accept the proposals of Subhash Bose to proclaim support for him and the Indian National Army.
- source - R.C.Majumdar (Indian Freedom Movement)

4. His launch of fast-onto-death in 1948 due to refusal by Sardar Patel to pay 55 crores to Pakistan fearing that Pakistan would use the money to fund the war in Kashmir.
Patel acceded to Gandhiji's request and sent the money to Islamabad.
Which was promptly used to fund the '48 Indo-Pak war.


The above was most definitely not to criticize Gandhiji as a person or as a saintly figure in any way.

It was just to indicate that his interpretation of the Gita, in which he found only Pacifism, was completely wrong, since Gita also teaches the path of fighting to protect your honor and country, as Tilak, Sri Aurobindo Bose and Swami Vivekananda so correctly interpreted.

And it was Gandhiji who influenced the nation's policies and mindset - a nation which, bereft of his complete faith in renunciation of all worldly things, a nation of common people, and not saints, now stands in a mess so deep that it does not know how to get out of.

Anonymous said...

There should be a strict law in India that if you speak or write against Mahatma Gandhi then that's anti-national activity and there should be punishment same as the punishment for anti-national activity. If that happens then all Sanghis and Bajrangis will be behind bars including the prospective PM Advani and Mahatma Modi...lol

Anonymous said...

^^^ The above Anonymous was not me. lol.

Thanks for the in depth and elaborate answer! I must confess I just skimmed through it as I just finished writing my aeroelasticity exam and have exhausted all brain power for the day. :]

I am no match for you when it comes to war of words or even knowledge. But I will try and make my point. I believe that in a society as diverse as ours, we can never aspire for that utopian dream of democracy unless backward and minority societies are given some sort of support to be on par with the others. The powerful otherwise will continue to dominate and suppress the others. I have seen and witnessed this happen in my home town and thus, I speak. What happened in Orissa is also a reflection of how the security, integrity and prosperity of minority communities are threatened even to this day.

Its a tough balance though, to know how to give that much needed support to the minorities without infuriorating the majority community. In attempting to do so, (maybe they have failed, or maybe they are dawning it into a false garb to gain votes), the INC has my admiration. I find it hard to explain my point of view, but hope you understand what I am saying. I am all in favour of equality, but again, we arent all created equals, are we?

Thanks for your patience in replying to me earlier and hope you do so again. :)

Cheers

- Anonymous

Anonymous said...

The part about rumour mongering was refering to Maghans remarks that, "Well, actually they say that Digvijay Singh got booted out a second time in MP because he tried to cash in on "Hindu Terror". To which you made no delay in saying,"Is that true ? How strange that our "secular" media has not picked THAT one up."

Not that it matters and it really isnt a big deal... but a lot of Congress bashing in an extremely distorted way goes on on the internet which upsets me. Youtube is filled with videos bashing Indian secularism and how muslims and christians should be wiped out. The user "Indianmediawatch" is one such poster to look out for. Well he may be a retard, but it shocks me of the number of people who leave comments agreeing to his point of view. Really, I am no fan of congress as well, so I shouldnt care as much as I do. :)

Joy do you have a blog?

Joy said...

To the Anonymous who wants to put me behind bars

Keep it up mate.
You want to put me behind bars for telling the truth about Gandhiji - historical facts, examined and approved by more than one historian, all of who are of impeccable credentials ?
Go right ahead.
And also, make sure you give a megaphone to the Arundhati Roys whose sole purpose is to demean Hinduism by any cost and sell this country to foreigners, which they are already achieving, thanks to mindset like yours.
Arabs in the 9th century.
Portugese in the 16th century.
British in the 18th century.
And we still won't learn.
Well - China has never occupied us - maybe they're next. You'll have fun, I am sure.
Me - I'll be in prison (or something else), so I don't care.
I would rather hold up my self-respect and try to honor my heritage and roots, damn with the consequences, rather than carry on with some phony hypocrisy.
Good luck to you, though !!!

Joy said...

To the reasonable Anonymous
Hope your exams went well.

Anyways, thank you for reading my posts. No, I don't have a blog of my own (maybe I should get one - huh ?)

You hit the nail right on the head - the key is to maintain the balance.

And you are absolutely right - I have seen the YouTube thing (disgusting), and also the numerous blogs and websites dedicated to this matter.

Yet, nobody goes to analyze why these blogs or websites or messages are being spread.
Why the people known historically for their tolerance are becoming intolerant as days pass ?

There are Arundhati Roys and Teesta Setalvads who will scream about minority rights, even for the rights of criminals. They will point out that we need to analyze their needs and understand their pain.
And they are right - we should.

But who will analyze our rights - the rights of the majority, the rights of someone suppressed and held hostage (at least in the minds of a lot of people) in their own country for centuries ?
The minority talks about decades of injustice to justify their repeated terror attacks, but why can't the majority point to the centuries of
injustice ?
15 years of continuous attacks (in just 50 years - don't have the time to go back) cannot be called minority terror, and yet 2 blasts is repeated Hindu Terror, ad nauseum, ad infinitum ?

Point is, the majority is frustrated. Yet, without trying to understand the reason for their frustration, they are being vilified.

Now, how do we fix it ?
Simple - get the Army in there. The only apolitical institution in the country needs to be allowed to instill law and order in the nation.
You cannot have secularism without Law and Order.
You cannot have tolerance without Law and Order.
You cannot have a nation without Law and Order.

You cannot have Law and Order with our esteemed political parties.

Read the following - very interesting..
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/12mumterror-unless-you-sacrifice-you-cant-fight-terror.htm

Joy said...

To Anonymous
Mea culpa. Didn't realize you were referring to that. However, I will point out that I have not seen it anywhere - Maghan's post is the first time I saw it being mentioned, hence me comment.
I would not proclaim to know everything, but am a voracious reader of everything that gets printed (TV bores me and I am an insomniac), so if I did not see it, chances are it did not get printed in the major newspapers.
If it did, I will take the statement back and offer my deepest apologies for that remark.

mahgan said...

>>The part about rumour mongering was refering to Maghans remarks that, "Well, actually they say that Digvijay Singh got booted out a second time in MP because he tried to cash in on "Hindu Terror"

Dear Anonymouse, that's what my friends from Indore say. That voters got very pissed off with Digvijay Singh's extremist allegations invoking "Hindu terror" and Malegaon

Many people -- especially media clowns -- are claiming BJP lost Delhi because the party made an issue of Muslim terror. You don't see such claims -- which present no scientific survey as evidence -- as rumour-mongering, do you? Let me guess your jaundiced view then: punditry explaining BJP's defeat is true; but any explanation of defeat of Congress or Left is "rumour-mongering". Right?

I beg to differ, my friend. You need to look at election results objectively, not with your prejudices.

By the way, more here on Digvijay Singh's loose-cannon act:

http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/11/20/chronology-of-digvijay-singhs-accusations-on-hindu-terror/

mahgan said...

>>Youtube is filled with videos bashing Indian secularism and how muslims and christians should be wiped out.

Anonymouse, I am suspecting that you're the one doing the rumour-mongering here. Propaganda to wipe out Muslims and Christians, eh? By the evil kaffir, unbeliever Hindus, no doubt? Your urge to protray Hindus as killers is rather disturbing. Can you post here a link to the youtube video you mentioned? Or would you rather be more comfortable shifting your stand and changing the goal-post?

Joy said...

Mahgan
Please find the link attached. (Surprised, right - me sending it ?)
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=y7D-kcayBL0

Joy said...

Just for kicks ...

Check this
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=4LphuoeXXHc

Or this ...
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=B4LoAAIX4Pc&feature=related

Or this ...
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=pueVNbuZ2A4&feature=related

Joy said...

My point is, you can always find what you are looking for, if you narrow your vision enough.

As human beings, and good people, we ought to be able to see both sides, not just one, to decide for ourselves.

Problem with our media(influenced by INC) is - they only show one, thus spreading hatred and chaos.

Also, please check a book called SatyaDarshini, published in Karnataka.
The Church calls it "work of one man", and disowns it, as does the work of the Southern Baptist Church calling Hinduism a dark religion, and the Church, again, disowns it.

But never actually say that they are sorry.

The above was in reference to the Karnataka Hindu-Christian riots.

If you wish to see where the Church says so, please read the following -
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/devils-advocate-archbishop-says-ban-bajrang-dal/74560-3-single.html

And notice how the question of why the book was actually written comes at the end.
Not the beginning, which would be premature.
Or the middle, which would be normal.
But at the end.

But at least CNN-IBN did an interview, and asked the questions.

mahgan said...

Hello Joy,

Good to see you taking up cudgels on behalf of anonymous. Hindus are always gallant, ever willing to spring to the defence of the defenceless :-). Anonymouse surely needs all the help he can get.

I had a premonition that if anonymouse were to provide any evidence for his claim at all, he would change his stand first, and soften it a great deal, and will go on to provide proof for this softened stand. Springing to his defence, you have done so, instead of he.

Anonymouse claimed that there are youtube videos calling for **wiping out** Muslims and Christians. This is a very disturbing claim our friend made -- for its subtext is that Hindus are so evil, they want to eliminate all Christians and Muslims. I watched two of those you posted, and in neither do I find evidence for that claim. Please note: we are not looking for proof that there are no Hindu leaders in this country who make rousing speeches against Pakistan. We are looking for youtube videos in which a call is made to wipe out Christians and Muslims.

To make it easy for anonymous (and you ;)) I'll water down _my_ stand. I don't need evidence for as Hindu-baiting a claim as the one our friend made. Proof for a far simpler claim will suffice.

On Diwali day in 1999, the late Pope John Paul made a speech to his flock in Delhi, and exhorted them to plant the Christian Cross in India -- meaning, "wipe Hinduism out". All of the guys I see in the videos you posted are no more or no less fanatical than the late pope. Yet, here's the simpler claim I am looking for: I'd like to see a video in which these guys invoke symbolism pointing to exterminating Christianity and Islam (if not exterminating Christians and Muslims) in much the same way that the Pope invoked the symbolism of "Christian Cross" to ask his flock to eliminate Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism etc.

Do you have any videos showing that sort of exhortation from Hindu leaders?

Joy said...

Um - mahgan
I think you got it wrong, buddy.
The first post was the only supposed thing I could find in Youtube where Hindu leaders were exhorting non-tolerance - the others were supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek retort to Anonymous (some of the various Hindu-bashing videos on Youtube).
I believe you've got me all wrong, man ... I urge you to read my posts - they are all over this post, and the Barkha Dutt related post too.

Your point needs no reiteration - the struggle for dominance of this land has been a part of the world's history, if you look at it.
It's now that a third party - the rightful owners have started to raise their voices.
That's what is bugging the seculars, who, for some unknown reason, have adopted the servile and corrupt attitude that this country has been saddled with, thanks to the Gandhi-Nehru legacy.

Anonymous said...

Oh man im so disappointed I typed a really long reply to both you guys and for some reason it didnt show up!!!! I dont think I have the patience to type it up again.

Just a few points that I wanted to make.

Maghan: Those videos really abound on the internet so if you are honestly looking... u will find them. Also you are misinterpreting the popes remarks when he said plant the christian cross! You can be charged for the same sins you accuse me of!

Joy: Yes you need a blog! We could take this discussion or rather exchange of ideas somehwere other than Shobhaa jis backyard lol. Also what exactly do you mean by saying "rightful owners". We are all shareholders of this land... no matter who we are christians muslims hindhus and the whole lot. I btw am atheist althoug I have christian inclinations coz i was brought up as christian. I admire hindhu Ideologies and philosophies too you know... but the way BJP portrays rather destroys these ideas (at times) really is treachorous to the true hindhus i have come across.

Also, I wont be in denial, that maybe i am biased because of my upbringing, and thats why I am speaking to you'll, so I hope you dont deny that there could be bias in your views too. That is the whole reason of this discussion. Another thing is that everything about hindhuism isnt all rosy. Casteism, sati system, treatment of women etc. has really been a curse to our society in the past. Not saying other religions cannot be accused of similar crimes. The contributions made by christian missionaries especially in the field of reforms, education and medicine should recieve some recognition or praise. Also our leaders or any leaders for that matter tend to get radicalised somewhere down the road... that is a universal trait. So that is where the problem really lies. So just because BJP claims to hold the banner of hindhuism and speak for all hindhus, please dont support them coz I think they could have really caused havoc if they were ruling at such a communally sensitive time right now. Thank God congress has been more mature and calm in tackling the current situation.

I am sorry I couldnt retype all what I wanted to say... but try to understand my point of view. I welcome any reasonable criticism but any misleading remarks like the ones maghan made will destroy the very purpose of an open debate and make us react like the ordinary voice on the street. I hope we are atleast more reasonable and understanding than them.

HAREKRISHNAJI said...

well said

Anonymous said...

Thanks HAREKRISHNAJI!

Neways Joy, i confess I really didnt read your posts thoroughly before replying. I came back to reread it and I was kinda disappointed with your comments!

Why are you getting so emotional that the church should apologise for what somebody it disowns did or said? We never ask the police or the mobs to apologise for terrorising our communities. By the same token you should not be making unfair demands of others.

Also mahgan, why are you so cynical of any non-Hindhus comment? Instead of assuming that I meant to say "Hindhus are evil" why couldnt you see plainly that I meant some videos on youtube sent vibes telling how India needs to be converted to an All hindhu land and in the process wipe out other religions? I just meant that there are videos posted by some very fundamentalist hindhus sowing seeds of hatred in our society. Is it really hard for you to rid of yourself of this bias? I continue everyday to cross examine my concience for this kind of bias that arises from my upbringing. I think everybody should make such an attempt.

In the end we are all people, and we would be happier I assure you if we lived in peace and prosperity, rather than holding on to our religions, pride and ego, and live in fear and cynicism.

Joy said...

Dear Anonymous
Sorry for the late response.
Yes - maybe I should get a blog - that would at least save space here, if nothing. And - copy everything you have written
before you submit the post - saves a lot of headaches, man..

Anyways -
The church disowned the literature.
AFTER the riots.

And it is not the first time the Church has abused the Hindu religion - vide Kolkata, in the 90s, when the Southern Baptist Church called Hindusim a "dark and evil" religion.
There were no riots then.
And the church went on with its abuse (I have heard it myself).
And it has become much better in the recent years - it was horrible earlier.

And this exactly is the problem the Hindu majority have - the arrogance and the violence imparted upon it.

You have said something about you knowing Hindu ideologies - I am sorry, but I think you know the Gandhian version.
You know, the Ahimsa one, which forebodes the Hindu of all violence, even at the cost of his self-respect, let alone his life and property.

That is NOT the Hindu religion. Gandhiji was right, to a certain point - as the Lord has rightly said, when your honor is at stake, when your property is at stake, you fight back - you always do.

So what is the problem we are having here - Hindus are protesting against injustice meted out for the last 950 years ?

How many places of worship has other religions had burned ? How many books were banned and torn up?
How many times were a certain set of people set upon against in history because they were, so to speak "idol-worshippers" ? I am quoting Timur the Lame, of course.

The Christians were persecuted in the later periods of the Roman Empire, and they resorted to violence in the streets - within a 70 years or so.
And rightly so - everybody should have the right to practice their religion without fear of persecution or ridicule.

Point is - we haven't had that right for 950 years. So some people might overreact. Instead of vilifying them, they should be listened to. And reasoned with.

And I urge you - read the book (it is in Kannada - I read a few parts of the English translation). I am sure if something even remotely scandalous was written against any other religion, firing squads would have been assembled.

A Danish newspaper published a horrific cartoon lampooning a religious figure. They have been apologizing for the last seven months (as they should - it was absolute filth).

And you ask me why the Church should apologize - why the publishers (they were pastors) should apologize to the Hindus for Satya Darshini ? (The Church did not even have the decency of excommunicating the pastors due to that filth called Satya Darshini.)

And then you point to the police and the mobs, without realizing the reason for the police and the mobs are the "so-called victims".

Pity.

Joy said...

And finally, to your comment about "In the end we are all people, and we would be happier I assure you if we lived in peace and prosperity, rather than holding on to our religions, pride and ego, and live in fear and cynicism."

I agree with you whole-heartedly.

What I don't understand is - should we let go of religion to live in peace and prosperity ?

Joy said...

Anonymous (really - this getting ridiculous - I really should get a blog)
You say we should examine our own bias, just like you freely admit to having some yourself (and I admire you for it).
Let me give a shot at getting to the root of the bias in a lot of Hindus - A deep-rooted fear.

The fear of being enslaved AGAIN.

The fear of having to become second-class citizens AGAIN in their own land.

The fear of having widespread destruction and havoc wrought upon us again.

I submit this to you, as evidence -
"

"We [Muslims] were the legal rulers of India, and in 1857 the British took that away from us," says Tarik Jan, a gentle-mannered scholar at Islamabad's Institute of Policy Studies. "In 1947 they should have given that back to the Muslims." Jan is no militant, but he pines for the golden era of the Mughal period in the 1700s and has a fervent desire to see India, Pakistan and Bangladesh reunited under Islamic rule.

"
- Time Magazine, Nov. 27, 2008 (Cover story)

Does anybody ever ask us whether we want Islamic rule to be reestablished ?

Anonymous said...

ok this is the last long post on here lol... im going to set up a blog soon hehe.

Ok why are we rambling on and on. I will reveal to you something I think is unevitable. Are you ready to hear it?

Religion has been around since a long time. Humanity is heading towards a direction, by choice or fate, away from it. Look at the west for example. Democracy doesnt allow the strict rules and regulations, if any, of a religion to thrive. I can only see Religious Ideas, Ideologies and philosophies survive. So if Hindhuism doesnt undergo some sort of a transformation to make it appealing especially to the youth, Im sorry to say it man... it stands at the brink of extinction just like other religions too. BJP is already losing its popularity with the youth, for the "in your face" Hindhuism they are practicing.

I know this is a harsh truth. But think about it. Imagine the world 300 years in the future. You think, our kids and grand kids and great great grand kids will really perform pujas, go to church, or pray five times a day as religiously as our grandfathers did? I can see our adherence to religion weakening by every generation! So your question about letting go of Religion altogether... I would say dont let go! Cause we will lose all these years of our customs, traditions and what not. For me religion is like a fairy tale... its very enthralling, interesting and I would practice it only for sheer thrill (That is also part of the reason some westerners practice hindhuism). I think all religions are living in the fear of extinction and thats why they are becoming so insecure. It has happened in the past, it will happen again. This is how history will inevitably repeat itself. I know its a sorry prenomination I have. But I am afraid it is going to come true. Least we can do is to transform the image of Hindhuism in some which way... I wouldnt know... so it becomes more appealing to the future generations.

About church saying sorry and all that, so they didnt... what can we do? And btw the pictures of mohammed being published in that danish paper has drawn flack of such a bigger magnitude. They still havent really said sorry, and you would have that argument only if you were a muslim! Thats what im trying to say... we all have bias. I pursue and defend stories that affect my community, and you will pursue and defend stories that affect yours. That is why I see as the christian community as victims, and you see the mobs as victims. All is fair, I totally understand. But really lets stop all this... Im ready to extend a hand of friendship and move on... so what if you havnt apologized or if someone else hasnt apologised? I could care less. I am anonymous on here, so I dont mind being politically incorrect and will say that Organised religion to some extent is incompatible to democratic ideas. Islam is the prime example, christianity of a lesser extent, and Hindhuism of much lesser extent. I think Buddhism and democracy are the most compatible.

ahhh i dont feel like writing more lol. So ill stop here.

And to mahgan who tried to ridicule me as anonymouse. What makes him think he is less anonymouse than me? Just coz he put a damn name to his post? lol... go get a little education man.

Joy said...

Anonymous
Whoa !! Now that is an angle that is completely new.... Organized religion, in itself, slowly getting eroded by democracy..
You know - I gotta admit - this is something I'd thought of, but did not pay much attention to, since the idea just seemed, you know, ridiculous 'cos I myself am a bit of a history buff ... and it just seemed, y'know - scandalous..
I've read quite a few books across religions, and have found out that you can interpret a lot of them any which way you want - I guess that's why I get pissed off ..
Anyways, this'll be my last long post here, too - maybe I'll get a blog and we can continue this there.
Won't go into the Danish thing - the paper didn't - the Danish government did

Anonymous said...

Joy, I think we have more grounds that connects our ideas than we thought.

Since, I don't want to revisit this page again! Just send me an email, whenever you have ur blog set up:

r2dsilva@ryerson.ca

As for mahgan, it would be nice to have you onboard too lol.

Peace :)

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sumeet said...

We can write, lament,wait for another 26/11 so that hysteria builds up & dies its own death. We know we can't change, we're like that & we continue to accept the nonsense we are given....yeh sab chalta hai aur aisa hi hota rahega, so who's bothered, you-me-him. You know the answer & thats just about it. If you can't stand up, than why cry, its country of our making-good or bad, we reap Modi becoz we sow Modi (name and party is irrelevant here).